a church without walls

Reido,please correct me if I'm wrong on this one. Either way, I'd love to hear your take on it.

Reading John 4 I found something new in verse 37. Jesus says, “For in this case the saying is true, 'One sows, and another reaps'”, which my New American Standard Bible links to Job 31. In this chapter, Job is saying: “if I ever did anything against God and others [and he gives a long list of possibilities] then take away all that I have earned.” Specifically, in verse 8 he says: “Let me sow and another eat. And let my crops be uprooted.” So Jesus goes on to say, in John 4:38, “I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labor.”

Well some might say this means that the Jews have lost their inheritance to us Christians. But Jesus was not talking to Gentiles, he was talking to Jews. Well kinda. It seems that John calls Jews those who lived in Judea and worshiped at the rebuilt temple. By the way, the temple was David's and Solomon's idea – not God's command. Just as the monarchy that started with Saul and that many hoped Messiah would reinstated, was demanded by people while God did not want it. But Jesus was in Samaria on his way to Galilee and talking to those who had descended from Abraham just as the Israelites in Judea had. In other words, Jesus is not taking the labors of the Jews and giving them to us Gentiles. Instead, he is claiming God's Kingdom for those cast out of, and excommunicated by, the temple crowd whom John calls the Jews.

Furthermore, the phrase so often abused to bolster evangelism and mission-ism, doesn't mean that at all. When in John 4:35 Jesus says: “...lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest” he's talking about a done deal. The object of the harvest is the Kingdom – not new converts! He's telling the Samaritans that the fruits for which others sowed and labored are ripe in the fields for the taking. And his earlier reference to Job 31 explains why.

More on this later.

bill

Bill John 4 (had to paste it -- dont have a bible right now)

31 Meanwhile the disciples besought him, saying, "Rabbi, eat." 32 But he said to them, "I have food to eat of which you do not know." 33 So the disciples said to one another, "Has any one brought him food?" 34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work. 35 Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, then comes the harvest'? I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see how the fields are already white for harvest. 36 He who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. 37 For here the saying holds true, 'One sows and another reaps.' 38 I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor; others have labored, and you have entered into their labor." 39 Many Samaritans from that city believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me all that I ever did." 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them; and he stayed there two days. 41 And many more believed because of his word. 42 They said to the woman, "It is no longer because of your words that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world."

My view is that there is a lot of theology going on in John 4. It astounded me when I realized that this woman who was likely even an outcast among her own people should hear the words of Jn 4:24...God is Spirit and those who worship..." Her words were what she had been taught -- that religious prejudice was the understood rule and Jesus was trampling on it.

The fact that this was thought to be Jacob's well ties the place to the history of the Jews, and I agree that this was not a "Gentile" thing. When Jesus said, "I have food to eat that you do not know", why not just say "I am busy, you guys buzz off." I think you are onto something here. They did not know that Jesus was breaking down barriers that had been erected in people's minds -- that the kingdom of God was inclusive, not exclusive.

I very much agree that Jesus was not taking the labors of the Jews and giving it to the Gentiles here. There was a whole slew of forces at work...one might say it was the labor of God in time.

Yes, I believe we are seeing the gift of God freely given. Even the disciples did not know what Jesus was up to. This was what I meant by finding Christ in the wilderness The downtrodden, the poor, the lame, the whores and the tax collecters -- they got a Visitation.

Dont get me wrong, Jesus taught in the Temple too. But his words there had a lot to say about that too.

reido

Not only did Jesus start off with this bottom rung floozy, but he was in n----r town, to boot! What's more, Jesus was not in Samaria to patronize the ignorant slum dwellers. He was there announcing a prize they had won. And he went out of his way to do so. Well actually he chose to not go out of his way and bypass Samaria, as was expected. But the point is that he went there with this purpose in mind and early on in his career, too.

It's as if he's speaking to some old worn out frog sitting on a lily pad, saying “hey, you're really the long lost Prince and this here kingdom is yours.”

Thanks for pointing to this chapter, Reido. I'm even more convinced that the Kingdom is for these. As the last in religious society, they are the first in the Kingdom because Jesus went to them early. God is so awesome!

We need to stop evangelizing and start announcing.

bill

I don't think that the attitude about the first being last and last being first started with Jesus. The prophets in the OT railed against the powers that be and the suffering of the poor. A case can be made that God continually "inspired" the Jews to be selfless and have a sense of social justice. Around the same time of the OT other faiths around the world were discovering social justice as well. It is as if the "spirit" of God was moving man toward a heightened awareness. Unfortunately no one listened to the prophets. No one listened to Jesus either. Still, with all the people of the world reading the Bible, a majority still don't listen. They only want self-serving religion.

A church without walls is a wonderful idea. The only way that is possible is if we leave dogmatic religion behind. Everyone must be allowed to have their own view of God. We have to stop handing out salvation to idolatrous creeds and instead trust The One who made us.

BRIAN

I lost a previous post -- think I forgot tell it to post after I proofed it. Well, yes, I have been impressed by the recurring message in the prophets about remembering the laws of possession of land, keeping the Jubilee year, feeding the poor instead of oppressing.

I would like to hear more of how you would describe the spirit of God moving toward heightened awareness.

reido

reido,

I am reading "The History of God" by Karen Armstrong right now. She claims that at about the same time in history, several religions including the Buddhists, Hindus, and Jews all began criticizing the oppression of the poor. Before this time the pagan world did not care at all about the poor and oppressed. The Kings and elites were in charge and that was the way it should be according to them. For some reason, the "social prophets" of the OT began preaching the value of the individual. There seems to be heighted awareness in the other faiths that individuals were important to God as well. Since travel and communication at this was limited at have to assume that the spirit of God "inspired" a large number of people all over the world to care more about each other rather than conquest and power.

Of course it could be argued that the theoretical "collective unconscience" was responsible for changing of peoples attitudes, but I think perhaps we might be talking about the same thing.

Bill

That's the kind of offense we are talking about. "Across the tracks" used to be such an expression. Does the fact that language like that is no longer used take away its meaning? I think not. The words symbolize something other than themselves -- bigotry, racism, isolation from the upper class.

One of the first things we see in this story is that Jesus spoke. The Samaritan woman was so taken aback that she inquired, "How is it that you a Jew ask me?" Then she began to build the wall -- the barriers that keep people out. And Jesus kept coming back taking it all away.

"Living water" is what he offered. It was a universally recognized symbol of life. Looking even deeper, not only was the living water a significant part of what Jesus was about with her, it plays into John's narrative. In "The Fourth Gospel" C. H. Dodd proposed that the first four chapters of John are the "Water Section." The section contains the first sign of water into wine, then a nighttime discussion of being born of water and spirit, and the promise of living water to the Samaritan. Later in an obscure passage in his first epistle, he would call to witness the water, the blood, and the Spirit on Jesus' behalf. Though it would be a highly developed theme, John's literature is more a composite than a simple addition to the other gospels. Whether intentional or not, the Samaritan Woman illustrates that the unfit were purposely targeted in the mission and teaching of Christ. The springboard would be to ask how this ministry fit with the message of First John. Learned scholars contend that John had the Gnostics in his sights, but there is evidence to the contrary. A reading of John's literature that takes into account his use of symbology and dualism might lead one to conclude that he was opposing the exclusion of believing Gnostics. If so, he lost the first major battle to maintain unity in the church.

reido

Bill and Brian

Thank you both for your input. I intend to put it to use and do more work on a first chapter -- may split to a second chapter at the topic of A Desperate Hope, or White Unto Harvest. Since John 4 is the center of thought, perhaps the latter.

Well, here it is. The thesis stands or falls by revealing a heterodoxy in the ministry of Christ. Many more passages will follow the same overall theme with different observations to be made about the church without walls.

First, does the thesis stand?

Second, what features so far are relevant, which are not?

Third, what do we need to develop more within the chapt to avoid being vague?

Then last, what needs to be added at this point, and possibly dropped?

I look for everyone to contribute thoughts and have no intention of monetary gain -- only to take a journey together.

reido

In this study, I began asking what each instance of the hearing of the gospel had in common in the Apostolic era. It was not the entirety of the New Testament that was preached at each occasion, but it was a Person around which the message was built.

Now if one were to approach you on the street and tell you that in order to be a disciple of Jesus, you must obtain sufficient knowledge and skill in the interpretation and application of the New Testament, you might feel sort of inept. But if one pointed you to the Christ and said that He is the "Way, the truth, and the life"--let your heart become like His heart; then you might say you can at least grasp what it is that they are talking about.

Suppose then, that you were to follow this simple approach to
interpreting the message of the NT. Suppose we were to say that
Christ is the best commentary there is. I ask you to put this to the test. Is it real? Is it verifiable? Is it reliable? Could one
imitate the Master in his treatment of others, his forgiving spirit, his humble submission to the will of the Father, his absence of condemnation, his enabling others to find God? Would the message of the NT fit His life and example?

The more I search and question, the more Real He becomes. Have any of you searched the same?

One wrote to me in answer to this study, "Our responsibility is
not for us to try and live like Christ, but rather for us to allow Christ to live through us. The two concepts sound similar but are most certainly different." This adds another dimension to the Christocentric View.

What we are thinking about here is allowing Christ to influence even HOW we learn from the Scriptures. That is, asking in each verse, "Where does Christ fit, exemplify, teach, live as this particular passage conveys the Father's will to me?

Now, if we were to adopt such an open perspective, then I believe the result will bring about this exchange of allowing Christ to live through us.