What the hell is hell?

Thanks Mark and Bill

I will never forget the death of my wife's good friend -- why she took her life and what we might have been able to do had we known. The whispered undertones were the sadness of the way the Mother Church would not be able to help her in eternity because the outcome was already determined.

My own feelings were that the sadness was that they missed the point. She was in hell while she was alive, and felt there was no other means of escape and relief than to end it. It is sad that an entire system failed to recognize the symptoms of pain and anguish in a valuable human being. This is not an isolated incident -- it is all around us.

reido

Reido,
This is really sad. Although there are often physiological causes, the least that we can do is to make the sufferer's hell less uncomfortable. On the contrary, I think that church often contributes to the inadequacy feelings of Depression by setting a standard too high even for people who don't have that great burden to bear.

bill

Mark,

Thanks for your comments. Your on the boat, as far as I'm concerned.
The “hellfire & brimstone” is just too easy, don't you think. It's a way of getting people to join the club and give their money without taking up any of my (our) valuable time to love and care for them.

Even in my corporate experience, real concern motivates people better than threats. Many people will wok their butts off for a leader they respect. And they respect that leader because the leader first gave them respect. But the alternative—brow beating people and threatening them—works for a little while until the subjects of abuse figure a way out. Then they leave.

Hey. That's what's been happening in Christendom.

bill

It sounds like you're talking about a "state of existence" caused by evil choices, rather an a geographical "place" that is inherently evil.

Pax,
Mark Bushor

Yes exactly. But it is a real place for the people involved. They live inside it. I guess you can be inside a state of being too, it means the same thing. But a place is a better word I think.

And they also can’t put themselves into another state of mind to get out of it. I mean I’m sure this is done, and it can help. But it doesn’t cure the problem; the problem is real.

Hell on earth could be both a state of being and a physical place. Interestingly, if we wanted to help someone we knew who was "in hell", probably one of the first things we would do is try to help them escape their physical place of torment so that we would have a chance to help them improve their "state of being." A person's physical surroundings have a way of dragging them back. You're right, the problem IS real and that person who is "in hell" on earth needs help. I would add they need love not a sermon.

tolywotty

Amen!! And in another direct way, we should work together to put out the flames of hell!! :)

Hey I just had a thought, ( I feel like a pothead just blurting out with this kind of talk)

I know this isn't new.... maybe someone explaining Marx said it, I haven't really read him myself... or psychologist talk or something... but I actually feel it, talking about these things....

Heaven, Hell, these could be universal concepts inside of us. Our makeup as living beings knows these ideas innately and they come out of us into everything we do. Sometimes stress will show them more clearly. Or when we actually ponder things, like on this blog.

The same might be true of God and the Devil. All of these things could be part of the song of our souls.

When I'm on this blog and some other ones, sometimes I feel a real connection. I feel really close to everyone. You all feel like my Brothers.

John,
I agree with you. Perhaps many or only some people “know” these things but I agree that we do.

We don't know what “spirit” is but we feel it. It may be camaraderie or it may be something otherworldly. Maybe it's merely emotion or perhaps it's a divine spark. Either way, it's the result that counts.

Good and evil are forces that we see at work around us. Perhaps they're merely the result of nature and nurture or maybe there're influences beyond our understanding.

Whatever revelation we choose to explain all of this should make sense to us. Maybe not at first hearing but eventually we should “know” the truth. Believing shouldn't be a struggle.

bill

Well maybe that's what the difference is then.

Once you "know" it, you become enlightened or born again. Before then it's still a part of all of us, it just hasn't been revealed. And that's another force at work on us. Searching for the Truth. We might can settle for some truths, but they don't actually help us. But when we find the "redeeming" truths, and put a formula for bringing a "heaven to the earth", we may have something. [I.e. Just Society, Universal Morality - "we are all created equal" & "love your Neighbor as yourself"]

This of course could be my ideology again, and what an idealog does is sees everything how he wants to, even when it was never meant that way. And in that way I feel exploitive. :/

This may stem from my pondering of socialism or anarchism of some form, how they might be very good for our country. I think it seems natural for all of this and would solve lots of the problems/hells.

Yes, ideology is one of those ingredients that seems to get added to everything like high fructose corn syrup. It makes religion palatable to a much larger audience. But ideology is exclusive and so is religion. The connection that I'm thinking about excludes nobody, although some will exclude themselves.

If you follow along the path that Jesus took and observe the people he met and lived among, you rarely find anyone with power. There were some ideologues but he never—that I can remember—affirmed them. Because, as he said, his kingdom was not of this world. So the message is a world changing one but is not of this world. And the message is life changing without changing the world. World changes are a welcome byproduct.

bill

Yeah but what if you can't change some of the inner without changing some of the outer?

Or maybe, you have to change the inner, but you can't sustain the change unless the inner is reflected in the outer?

Maybe you can't have a "heaven on earth" unless it sticks physically. Which must be a second step after our spirits are transformed (or made known that we even have them and should value them).

Our spirits being defined as our being as humans: our souls – the driving force of who we are, and our searching for meaning, making connections, having great value – going above and beyond, connecting to our God.

What do you suppose we could do to work together better to put out the flames of hell?
Jesus taught a lot, BUT Jesus DID a lot.
What can we DO?
Maybe we can figure out ways to put out one little fire at a time.
Maybe with God's help, we can help one individual at a time and help them "escape" from their hell on earth.
I know we have a lot of institutions and government programs, but nothing will ever replace the effectiveness of individual people of God dispensing His Love unconditionally in person to others in need.
It is so scary sometimes because it gets messy and inconvenient but maybe somehow we could encourage each other to "get our hands dirty" a little more often while trying to help put out some of Satan's fires.
John D,
Thank you for your thoughts... keep 'em coming. Maybe, together, we can figure out some ways to help change some "outers"... I bet God will handle the "inners." Praise to Him who has the power to change the heart.

peace and blessings,
tolywotty

Hi TW. Long time no see. Welcome.
To your questions I have no answers. But I did read some interesting stuff in a gnostic text entitled The apochryphon of John.

It's a bit long but has some interesting perspectives. The context is John, one of the sons of Zebedee, talking to the Lord in the spirit. John asks questions and Jesus answers them. You need to know some about Gnostic theology to get some of it. It includes some heaven and hell answers, or eschatology, from the gnostic perspective. For the gnostics, there is the Spirit of life and a counterfeit spirit.

As for where the souls go after death.

And what about those who are merely ignorant of truth?

I'll stop there because I haven't really studied this one. It is an interesting document with a description of what might be pergatory.

bill

Can you comment more on the "counterfeit spirit"?
Is it referring to something besides the inflence of Satan?

tolywotty

Toly,
Sorry for taking so long to respond to your question, I got distracted and then forgot until now.

The counterfeit spirit, I don't quite understand but I'll try. According to the gnostic creation myths, there is a God above all other beings. At the lower end of this hierarchy is Sophia, or the Spirit. The next level down is where the creator god, Yaltabaoth, and his archons live in ignorance of everything above. Yaltabaoth is the Demiurge, or lesser god, who claims to be the only god, created the world—yes this is where the gnostics really upset the orthodox.

According to The Apochryphon of John, the God of all who is both Mother and Father sent a helper (Epinoia) to man in an attempt to reclaim creation from the Demiurge.

But because man (Adam) was superior to the Demiurge and his archons, Demiurge brought death upon man and reformed him with a counterfeit spirit that caused him (actually they: humankind) to forget from whom he originally came. But the real spirit is still within him—he's just forgoten.

So, the answer to your question seems to be, that the spirit of materiality and forgetfulness about God. However, in another place that I can't now find, the counterfeit spirit is used to describe those who will never turn toward God. Sort of like the tares scattered among the wheat that Jesus told a parable about.

I hope this helps.

bill

Perhaps you can forgive my spelling, I'm a product of my raisin' on the farm. I grew up on a ranch in west Texas where it was often "hotter than hell." We didn't have a lot of ice and for sure no hockey, but you could make a toothpick out of any nearby mequite bush. But I have to admit a hockey stick would have come in handy sometimes to deal with the snakes. Today, I'm a city slicker, but those roots run deep because we never got a lot of rain. I really like to discussions on this site... a lot of different perspectives and seems like lots of respect for those different perspectives.
Be cool & be blessed,
:)tolywotty

I saw this article http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/061705dnmetsbc.17df84c1.html and I thought perhaps it would fit here because of the dual destination doctrine that is so sacred to them. Baptist dogma is not selling as well as it use to because scaring people has ceased being effective.

The downfall of modern Christianity is occurring and they still don't have a clue why. It is really kind of sad.

Brian

Brian,

Although I appreciate your pity for the SBC, I'll be happy when we can get past the BS and get on with redeeming the world.

Their love affair with national politics (and that of similar groups) grows naturally out of their local and internal politics—IMHO. Their political prowess grows inversely to their integrity. These groups will end up as ecclesiastical backwaters.

Or maybe I'm wrong and they'll take over the country and bring about The Day of The Lord.

bill