Preaching the Bad News

DJ,

Thanks for the encouragement. I was afraid that this one was over the top but it's the way I felt.

As a relatively new Christian (your self characterization, though I sense more maturity), I hope we don't scare you off. Some of us have been through the church wringer and survived, but not unscathed. Church can be tough business. The bigger, the tougher. But the body of Christ needs no institution to survive and thrive. Sorry, but I must make a friendly jab here at Soup over the silliness of a literal interpretation of “body of Christ”

I agree with you on church failure. However, there is great progress in better treatment of people the world over, these past few centuries. Many Christians won't own that improvement because they want to see their denominational numbers increase. Nevertheless, the world is a much more humane place than it was just 100 years ago. We should not let the humanists take all the credit. This improvement comes from 2,000 years of Christianity. Despite the very dark times of heresiologists and inquisitors.

This is well said.

If that happened, the kingdom of God would exist here. Unfortunately, some want cataclysm to come first.

Please do not worry about running me off.
I fing this site interesting so far.
I will not be offended enough to leave.
I used to hit the Christian chat rooms
so I am battle tested.

It was not long ago on a business road trip
I picked up a Christian talk show. On this show
they stated that if you belong to a big church
then you are not honoring God. Churches are
supposed to be small, the narrow path they kept
reminding me. They called Rick Warren of satan
and any church that has held a Purpose Driven Life series
of satan. I called the station and they answered
"Jimmy Swaggert ministries". I challenged them on their
stance and they hung up on me.

I think small churches can honor God and
I am sure He has a purpose for them. I do think
most small churches ( rural churches excluded)
think the Gospel is all about them and not
about the dying world around them.
The only time they add a new member is when
a member has a baby.

This is not an argument against small churches
but against the idea that the Gospel is only
meant for a "select few".
This turned more into a rant than anything else.

Has it become necessary as PMi believers to redefine who and what "church" is?

And is this redefinition part of what is emerging?

reido

There seems to be a growing evangelical presence at this board. That's good. I have a few questions I would like to ask all of you. What do you offer other than conditional salvation that I can't get somewhere else? Jesus wasn't a chrisian, why should I be one? How is christianity superior to secular humanism?

I must warn you I have heard all of the canned answers before. In fact I was baptized twice because I was told the first one didn't take. Apparently the second didn't either. I come to the website everyday hoping to find inspiration to continue being a christian. Though I find the discussions about systems, matrixes, and symbolism interesting, there really is nothing about any of that that has a real world affect. At least I can't figure out what it is.

I know that Bill and reido have dedicated large portions of their lives to Christianity. I would ask both of you if you were both young person would you even consider doing it again? Do you think that even if you knew what you know now you would still be a christian? Is Emergent Christianity really all that different? It seems to me to be more of the same. Repackaging crap only makes it smell better for a time.

Sorry to be so negative, I am not in a happy place right now when it comes to christianity. I am certainly ready to listen to anyone who can give me a reason to be. Of course I could be unhappy just because I turn 30 next week. I doubt it though.

Brian

Brian,

Don't worry about being negative. If this site does nothing else but give people a place to vent and work through their frustrations with religion, then it will be successful.
I appreciate your candor and must admit that sometimes my tangential exploration is avoidance. Sometimes it's avoidance of questions similar to those you asked. While I might answer them differently next week or the week after that, I'll give you today's answer.

If I did not grow up in Christianity, I probably would not pursue it now. However, I would pursue God. Whether starting a fresh pursuit of the Divine would end me up in Christianity, I don't know. But for all of my confusion, disappointment, anger and sometime resentment, at 48 years I cannot not seek God. I have been so angry at people and even at God that I have walked away. And more than once. Still, something pulls me back. And it's not man-made religions or Christianism. It's something beyond my comprehension.

No. What is called “Emergent” church is an attempt, but it will eventually be church as usual. Even if it is church unusual now, it will become church as usual. The only real church is the one that we can only struggle to find, create or recreate. I don't have a good answer for you. I'm sorry.

We are fortunate, my family and I, to have found a place with friends who genuinly struggle just like we do. That's rare in my life's experience. But it is possible to seek God in the worst of places. At least theoretically. I had to get away from man-made church for several months before I could look again. Again, I was fortunate to find a place.

Nevertheless, the emergent church that I seek and the one that Reido writes about, is not contained in buildings or walls, nor defined by creeds or conferences. What I hope will emerge is a sense that we are the church because we seek after God.

Anyway, you're not alone. It may not help to hear that. But all who seek will struggle. There can be no up without a down. Those who pretend to have it all together will just become shiny cups full of cobwebs and bones. It is in desperation that transition occurs. It's when we've lost our way that we recheck the map.

Sorry for all of the drivel. Thanks for letting me know that you're getting little or nothing out of the posts and discussions. But your questions help turn the discussions in another direction. We should discuss more important stuff.

Good evening, Brian.

Thank you for your honesty, and thank you for the opportunity to look at our own faith.

“What do you offer other than conditional salvation that I can't get somewhere else?”
Would you mind explaining what you mean by “conditional salvation”? I could attempt a few guesses but that would be silly. I don’t know what you have been told or what you have experienced. Scripture is fairly clear on it (as far as I can see) but different denominations tell you all kinds of things.
One who comes to know Jesus, not the church, will find an incredible freedom and peace from being forgiven and restored to the One who created us for that fellowship. Guilt is a heavy load, and the Elks Club or the comradery of the softball team cannot lift it.

“Jesus wasn't a christian, why should I be one?”
Christian is just a term (meaning little Christs) once used to mock the believers who followed Jesus. It stuck, we accepted it. Christos is Greek for “Anointed” as is Mashiach (or Messiah) in Hebrew. Jesus was a Jew, he studied Torah under his parents, and then the rabbis at the synagogue. His teachings were fairly close to the Pharisees, except that he taught what he knew rather than what he’d been told. The nature of God was to Him breathing, living reality and not the dry book learning of the scribes and rabbis of the day. So why should you be a Christian? What He would have us to be is close to Him. The whole plan of salvation was to restore us to the communion we lost through Adam when sin separated us from God. He wants that restoration more than we who lost it because only He remembers what it was meant to be.

“How is Christianity superior to secular humanism?”

* Humanism is a “doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason.” It rejects religion or any spiritual enlightenment. It searches, but has no answers.
* Christianity is, ideally, a lifestyle of walking in harmony with Jesus and our brothers and sisters, as we become what God created us to be in the first place. Granted, there is room for improvement in this. God made us and has the answers.

“I would ask both of you if you were both young person would you even consider doing it again? Do you think that even if you knew what you know now you would still be a christian?”

When I was 27 I came to a place where I needed to know why I was here and what life was for. I wondered if I was a just dispensable pawn in the giant chessboard of life.
So I started reading through religions and philosophies, and talked with a lot of smart people who should know the answer. One day when I was at the bottom of the bottom, having given up on finding “the truth”, some people came along who looked right through the anger and yuck I was wrapped up in and just loved me. They accepted me as I was, and let God start stirring my heart for Himself. No nagging. No threats. Un-earned love is a mystery I really needed to understand.
I’d do it again- but a lot earlier.
Yes, this family of God is a dysfunctional mess. It’s made up of a lot of dysfunctional humans who have all kinds of personal agendas. But God will work that out, my responsibility is to pray for us, not fix us, and try not to slander those who disagree with me even if they slander me.

rene'
holding to jesus~ sifting the rest

Brian,

First of all, Happy Birthday!
I also have been baptized twice, probably for similar reasons as yourself, I was still looking. Searching, wanting, longing. What finally hooked me, what finally made me throw out all the questions, and logic and contradictions, was the idea of grace, of unconditional love.

Every religion I have studied has some concept of karma, of a cosmic balance, where there is a quid pro quo, conditions of acceptance where if you do this, then that will occur.

What struck me about what we call Christianity, about Jesus, was his offer of unconditional love, that he loved me regardless, and only asked to be loved in return. No eightfold path or a trip to Mecca, or divinations, just love.

Strip away "church", walk outside the building, look past doctrine and dogma, and legalism, and procedure, and rules, and what you have left is love.

Soup talked about the "narrow path" and she sure is right, because love is a difficult concept to fit inside a human form. She would probably throw me in the "bubble-gum your OK I'm OK" crowd, but for me that is why I would seek God through Christ again. If I had to do it again, I would.

Brian,

I read your post carefully and have prayed for whatever
you are currently going through.

It your problems are with the local church
just remember the local church is made up of
imperfect people that serve a perfect God.
They will make mistakes but we cannot assume
their Savior is imperfect because of the
mistakes the local church makes.

Becoming a Christian is not about making us happy.
In fact Christ said it would not be easy and
that we would have to take up our cross daily
to follow Him.

Many online Christians will tell you that you
do not need a church to follow Christ.
They may be right but I can tell you it
is not what God intended. He has called us into
a Community of Believers and that is the local
church.

I will continue to pray for you

DJ