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Writer's Block and Lost Faith

Lately I've been struggling against writer's block, which is a bit alien since I'm not a real writer. Actually I'm just an amateur thinker who writes to share ideas with other thinkers—thus every piece is actually incomplete; a work in progress; a marker along the journey. However, researching and thinking about this project on Faith has left me at times confused, clueless, even faithless, unable to see the trees for the ever expanding forest.

Sitting in three stacks on the floor are several of the books that are read with some parts read again, underlined and marked with dozens of crumpled post-it notes, all part of a clumsy effort to understand faith and define it anew for this post-modern, post-rational, existential world—expecting then all of it to be laid out in an organized fashion, with references marking the trail so that others can retrace the path and understand the journey. But it has become a forest of books and notes and underlined phrases. No beginning, and certainly no conclusion. Here and there a cluster rises out of the background, but they are out of focus, inconclusive, indistinguishable, out of reach.

A personal reason for undertaking this quest was, I now think, a holy grail like search for faith itself. That is, I must have hoped that if I could find it, grasp it, examine it, sketch it and define it, then I could know it. Because we live in a faithless time, you know. But it's not because of creeping secularism, as some charge. Many isms are attractors of faith: capitalism, fascism, etc. One can put faith in the secular, the scientific, the logical, after all and many of us have tried. But all the preaching by all the cardinals of scientism will not return our faith to a world view that has taken away our meaning and reduced us to standardized, replaceable cogs in a great, random cosmic machine, competing for our livelihoods against Natural Selection and Free Market forces. Neither will our faith be regained by patriarchal, patronizing religion, and certainly not by evangelicalism. The prophets of evangelicalism have been predicting a great and glorious eschatological end for more than 2,000 years, seemingly clueless of the meaning of their own words. Not only have they failed to predict the returning Golden Age, but they have not brought us faith—not in this age. Instead, they redefined faith and redemption so as to give them power over us and in so doing turn their own teaching upside down and turned us into cogs of their parochial machine. Government has failed as well. Democratic government fades into illusion, becoming tyranny of the perceived majority, with leaders and statesmen replaced by parrots, parading from perch to perch telling us what they think we want to hear and then doing what their largest supporters tell them to do because they too are subject to Darwinian Fitness. Dysfunctional families, governments, religions, philosophies, sciences and we all, leaves us what? Faith lost. There is nothing worthy of faith. Yet there is faith and redemption. It is. Somehow, it is.

All of this failure, disappointment and disillusionment notwithstanding, there must be faith, there must be redemption for humanity's anxieties. The one remaining thread of hope is the obvious reality that some of the brightest, best regarded thinkers to have walked this earth over at least 4,000 years searched for it. Whether they found it or not, they sought it. Whether they called it faith or realization, enlightenment or salvation, Allah, The Good, The All, or God, they sensed something transcendent, something beyond themselves, something worth seeking, even if it is forever out of reach. Which is our next clue.

Faith is unfortunately a noun in English without a verb form. Believe should be the verb form but has been put to other uses, as previously discussed here. The consequence of this is that we think of it, at least I think of faith as a thing when it should be an action. It is a pursuit. Maybe the term journey is a bit overused these days, but it is all I know of right now to describe a vector that points toward a goal, toward a destination. Vector is of course mathematics speak for a quantity that has not only magnitude but also direction. And faith is a vector quantity that has a magnitude of quality as well as a direction. The direction changes with the obstacles and mistakes of life but on average points toward that which one most values. If that is nothing, that is if there is no value on the horizon toward which one points a life, then the direction of that life will be merely the vector total of all the attempts, mistakes, sidetracks and reversals stumbled through. But a life lived on purpose will trend toward that purpose. Unless the purpose isn't real. A life of faith then, is a journey, including twists and turns, pauses and backtracks but one tending in the direction of a worthy trust. This is the beginning of my understanding of Existential Faith.

So this afternoon, while having coffee with a friend and complaining of my blocked-ness, he asked: “Are you writing as you go?” No, I answered. He was right on target. Always before, I wrote along the way, because that's where I was, and I knew it. That is, most all I had to write about was the present. The past would often come in to inform it, but the present was usually the tense. Lately I've tried to get all my eggs in one basket so I can better organize them. I've tried to approach a big subject from an overarching perspective. But I've never been able to organize anything like that before, anyway. I always work from piles, project piles, because in my minds eye most everything is connected in some way to everything else, so that I've never found myself capable of cutting things (ideas, materials, resources) up into neat packages and filing them away. My brain doesn't contemplate discrete packages in Aristotelian logic, it just doesn't pack things away in complete form, it always expects one or more parameters to change. Then my friend confessed that he rarely reads a book through to its conclusion. “I don't care about the conclusion,” he said. “I care about the journey. What I want to read about is how the author got to where he or she ended up,” he added. What I heard him say is that the events that lead up to the conclusion are real. What the conclusion is, I don't know, but it has to be some sort of filtered, massaged, compressed summary. Sometimes only the conclusion is real, and the steps leading up to it are just rationalizations to justify the conclusion. Other times the conclusion is all that's needed because it lives within Euclidean space, that is 3-space plus time, and all the reader needs to do to reproduce the writer's findings is to plug numbers into a formula—as it were. I'm not talking about geometry, actually. I'm trying to explain that objective, reductive “knowledge” or propositional truths can be repeated by plugging and chugging, as the saying goes. But there are other truths, or knowledge, that are not so easily repeated.

We live in a spacetime.

In spacetime, an event occurs at a point. Different than, as in Euclidean or Cartesian space in which an object exists at a point. I'm drawing a distinction between an object merely existing at a point, and an event occurring there. It's a happening. An occurrence. Not merely a thing. Events are more than objects. They are not objective, and neither are they subjective. They are both. Subjects act on objects during events. This is much more than reductive factoids. But I'm explaining what I learned from my friend telling me something I already knew but didn't really know. And that is that I just can't write about conclusions because I rarely ever come to them. Conclusions are way-points. They are what you know before you know something more. Conclusions can rarely be complete, tied-off, categorized and put away. They are rarely done. Conclusions are merely an event on the spacetime continuum of knowledge about something. The only way they are final is if you stop learning. Knowledge is always incomplete.

In the end, faith is like the path to enlightenment or redemption, plus the trust in there being such a thing worthy of pursuit. But enlightenment is itself a pursuit. Some would have us believe that they have already achieved this goal by way of degree, decree, a state of consciousness or by assenting to a set of propositions. But I think it is more a matter of magnitude and direction.

There are still two issues that remain. First is to go back to writing almost directly onto the website. I have a dozen or so pages, written over the past few months, that I've not posted because they're waiting for something to tie them together. They're waiting for the grand plan that I now realize I will not likely ever produce. The second issue is to figure out how to organize gobs of free standing essays into some cohesive whole. But maybe there just isn't one. That's what I promised, but maybe I can't fulfill that promise.



Related Items

Being Baptized in the River

Bill

I wanted to comment these last two days on your passage New Life From the Dead.  This one fits very nicely into the thoughts that you gave me from the aforementioned.

First, let me quote something from "The Wisdom of the Desert":  "A certain brother came to Abbot Silvanus at Mount Sinai, and seeing the hermits at work he exclaimed:  Why do you work for the bread that perisheth?  Mary had chosen the good part, namely to sit at the feet of the Lord without working.  Then the Abbot said to his disciple Zachary:  Give the brother a book and let him read, and put him in an empty cell.  At the ninth hour the brother who was reading began to look out to see if the Abbot was going to call him to dinner, and sometime after the ninth hour he went himself to the Abbot and said, Did the brethren not eat today, Father?  Oh yes, certainly, said the Abbot, they just had dinner.  Well, said the brother, why did you not call me?  You are a spiritual man, said the elder, you don't need this food that perisheth.  We have to work, but you have chosen the best part.  You read all day, and can get along without food.  Hearing this the brother said, Forgive me, Father.  And the elder said, Martha is necessary to Mary, for it was because Martha worked that Mary was able to be praised."

This was probably intended to be a simple lesson on piety and judgment, but since I had interconnectedness on my mind after reading your post, it came out something different.  You pointed out several myths (by "myth", I do not mean "Untrue") with common themes relating to Existence.  Could there be a common Source?  And is that source what people call "God"?

Excuse this simple analogy, but the picture is in my mind...  If we come to a great river there are a number of ways to think:  We could simply consider the river as it is, where it is.  The water may be good, but as it is a collection of many waters, it may have to be filtered and treated to make it good.  Or we could prefer the waters upstream, and begin to search out the tributaries and mountains for the clear source.  Or maybe we could settle somewhere in between -- not perfect, but still suitable.  Even so, the river continually cycles and changes with the seasons and the weather conditions, so what may be good at present may not be good later and a journey to find the clearer water would ensue.  But regardless of our particular point of place and time on that river, we are still involved necessarily with the sum of its own journey as it meets our own. 

In considering the totality of Life, there are no parts that are not useful. Each has its place -- even if so transitory that one particular place serves only to give birth to a different direction.  To return to an earlier question, could this be what people call "God"?

 

reido

Vesica Piscis

Reido,

Thanks for the words of wisdom. 

Creativity is born out of necessity and availability. Demand cannot create supply, for he is subject to it.

Maybe I'm reading too much or too little into your words. Nevertheless, I can't help but think Vescica Piscis. Birth from difference. Creativity from diversity. It also, because it shows up lightly veiled in scripture, and in religious art, can symbolise creativity and development in religion: that is syncretism. The one thing that is consistent throughout religious history, is syncretism.

So, in answer to your question, I think so. Creation and Creativity, both transcendent and immanent, but also still a mystery.

 

bill 

Interesting Symbol

Bill

 

I had not seen this explained.  Sure has its place in art, etc -- maybe even Gothic architecture.  Might it be compared to yin/yang?

 

reido

Yin/Yang

Reido,

As far as I know, Yin/Yang developed separately since it dates earlier than East/Middle East commerce, but I could be wrong. Still, they seem to come from the same principles. As I understand, Pythagoras learned some sacred geometry from India, and of course from Egypt and Mesopotamia. You probably know some of this.

And yes, the vesica piscis is the arch shape at Notre Dame Cathedral.

Concerning ancient symbolism and mythology: I'm convinced that we moderns don't even know how to read scripture anymore. We read it literally because we don't know what the symbols mean. It's like going to see a cultural comedian knowing nothing about the culture the comedian is poking fun at. We don't get the joke, or the point. Or maybe I'm the only one who doesn't get it. 

 

bill 

Mental Block... Creativity....

Dear Mr Bill,

It is very common that those who are involved in some creative work stumble on the  difficulty  at which posibly you are.  This is the well documented situation described in books on Creativity. The creative activity could be in any field of human endevor. You have been trying to redefine faith in  a most creative way  all these days  and are completely immersed in the activity. This stage is the most expected stage  for any one engaged in such activities. The experts recommend following:

a. Take a break from the work and forget for some time

b. Go on sight seeing, Holiday.

c. spend time with better half and loving kids

d. Engage in some other  relaxing activity nothing to do with the original activity. Play golf if you can. Go hiking.

e. Get into conversation with friends and well wishers on lighter matters away from the original work

f. Play games regularly for some days and break routine

g. Engage in prayers if believe in God

h. Engage in Yoga and meditation

i. Get in to activity of painting, photography, watching lighter and hilarious movies

j. Spend more time in company of  family watching a movie at dinner and breakfast

k. Read  light books. Even comics are OK

         Generally it is surely expected that suddenly  the light opens to you from darkness and the path will be clear. I experienced similar things in my life at several occasions during my intensive research works. Soultions appeared to me  that were very difficult and I almost gave up  in similar situations. Although one is  relaxing  in various activities, the mind  in subconcious state searches for solution and all of a sudden it strikes and at that point of time, take up the work again. Mental blocks are thus removed and path gets clear.  Hope you will try this and this is scientific recommended practice as a part of craetivity.In all these activities faith in oneself and own ability is a must. Faith in God is also a must if we subscribe to God or atleast in that invisible mysterious force that is guiding you and me and all in the universe. It may be any thing one may call.

Dr K Prabhakar Rao

 

Re: Mental Block... Creativity...

Dr. Rao,

Thanks for the advice. Coming from someone of your accomplishments, this is especially meaningful.

Part of the problem, written between the lines I suppose, is my struggle to hold onto faith in faith. I had begun to feel that this whole website and the ideals behind it was merely an illusion. That I'd deluded myself (as the Atheists claim) into something that was really nothing.

We do have three trips planned this summer, each with inspirational potential. And I have given myself a release from requirements for awhile.

Thanks again for your encouragement and support.

 

bill 

Is There an Answer? OR Is That the Answer?

Bill

Out of the mountain of collected thoughts in your study, something lurks in your notes and findings that is still developing.  It is odd that things appear to be motionless but all the while, still producing.

Take this passage that caught my attention....

If that is nothing, that is if there is no value on the horizon toward which one points a life, then the direction of that life will be merely the vector total of all the attempts, mistakes, sidetracks and reversals stumbled through. But a life lived on purpose will trend toward that purpose. Unless the purpose isn't real. A life of faith then, is a journey, including twists and turns, pauses and backtracks but one tending in the direction of a worthy trust. This is the beginning of my understanding of Existential Faith.

I am always rephrasing, so excuse  me for morphing here.  Are you linking Value and Meaning to Faith?  Then, are you expressing Life as the authentication of this Search for purpose (meaning and value)? 

If so, then you have added a much needed dimension to Faith.  The movement from words and definition to a Living Expression now becomes part of the dynamic of Faith -- interrelated and interconnected.  To me, when a person understands that, he/she begins to make a Soul.  And what is a Soul if it is not a living expression of Faith?

In Jesus' day, the expression "seeking the kingdom of God" was apparently used often and become a base for much of his teaching in parables.  Even today we hear a great deal of teaching about the Locus of the kingdom.  That is, time and place (Objectivism) are assigned and then the points of the vector are set -- now "Go, and do this or that".  Obviously, it was thought that the kingdom of God was where God is (see wording regarding Temple, heaven, etc) and God and Man would walk together as in the Garden.  Historically, I see great difficulty in finding this kingdom if it is Objectified.  Jesus said, "the Kingdom of God is within you."  If we do not lay claim to an Object here, but instead open the door to many vectors trending toward a purpose, a Journey begins.

Lest anyone think that this is an Exclusivist concept of Faith, suffice it to say that whether we are aware of it or not, this is what we do.

 

reido

Needle in the Haystack

Reido wrote: Are you linking Value and Meaning to Faith? Then, are you expressing Life as the authentication of this Search for purpose (meaning and value)?

If so, then you have added a much needed dimension to Faith. The movement from words and definition to a Living Expression now becomes part of the dynamic of Faith -- interrelated and interconnected. To me, when a person understands that, he/she begins to make a Soul. And what is a Soul if it is not a living expression of Faith?



Yes, that's one of the main thrusts. I'm looking for what might be sort of a Jungian archetype of Faith.

For example, something very big happened to New Yorkers after 9/11. Some social scientists might call it survival instinct, and for some people that's perhaps all they could muster. But for others, many others it seems, there was a collective Faith that pulled them together. A city known for competitive, individualistic rudeness came together for survival. But they weren't surviving physically. It was their spiritual survival that was at risk, and that is what they teamed together to defend and to grow.

There's still an etymological problem that I haven't solved. Faith ultimately comes to us via the ancient and medieval patronage relationships. This merely brings the whole concept back to covenant. But in these days of prenuptial agreements, no-fault divorce, corporate takeovers and incorporated churches, honor is not priced in blood but in dollars, or the local currency. Banishment merely requires finding another job, or at worst, another profession. On the other end, there is absolutely no loyalty to clients, voters, employees and parishioners from patron employers, politicians, employers or church leaders. Nobody “keeps the faith.” They merely pay the fine and “move on.”

Paul is not telling his followers that all they need is to believe the right things, of course. When he tells them that Faith trumps law he means that keeping the faith is more and better than keeping kosher. It's a patronage system between the devotee and God. A blood covenant. Keep the faith. Fidelity trumps rule following. Everybody wanted a prized patronage. But we don't get this today.

Still, you're right on target—at least the way that I see it—in concluding that Value and Meaning are linked to Faith. How does one describe it for today?

For sure, it requires the courage and audacity to reframe the story. Paul framed it in a way that made perfectly good sense to Hellenized Jews, God-fearers and others familiar with the philosophy and mythology of the times. Something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue. He paid a price for it though.

You've pointed out the needle in the haystack.

bill

These Are the Generations

Bill

You have rightly shown that there has been a tremendous shift in meaning in the Ages.  The family unit was central to teaching and understanding.  The system was not without limitations.  However, today's world is educated outside the home for the most part -- while that imparts a lot of data, it does not teach much about Faith. We supposedly get that at church, where the corporate system morphs into a religious system.

One of the results of that lost chord is Cheap Faith -- that is what I read into your description of the lack of keeping the Faith evident today.  Another is Misplaced Faith -- unlike the cheap kind, people will die to keep it, isolate themselves from other people, observe very strict laws.  I see the latter as a search for the lost chord -- a collective need as you said. 

Whether we consider the paternal pattern of old or the secular/modernistic pattern of today, I think we are talking about HOW faith is learned or not learned.  In either case, the method can fail if the wrong thing is learned.  We might say Faith is bastardized. 

How to explain this in our day?  I think it was Arti who used the word NATURAL to explain complex process in a very simple way.  Maybe this is a clue to explaining it in a universal way?

 reido

The People of God

Reido wrote: How to explain this in our day? I think it was Arti who used the word NATURAL to explain complex process in a very simple way. Maybe this is a clue to explaining it in a universal way?

Reido,

What you (and Arti) describe would work best if there were a people set aside to show the world by their actions and resulting lives what faithful lives look like. I'm not being Judeo-Christo centric here, it's just the only tradition I know well enough.

In a recent experience, the words taught were mostly straight out of scripture, sometimes with an evangelical bent. But the subliminal message taught during non-lesson time was that big kids win, and that different kids not only lose, but that they are there for the purpose of entertaining the big/smart/good looking/etc. kids. This is easy enough to measure. All that it requires is a survey (honesty is however hard to get from kids who've been taught to go along no matter what) asking: do you have fun at said activities? Those who have fun consistently, are recognizable from those who consistently hate participating. What sort of lesson is learned by these two groups? Do they grow into adulthood with the same perspective? Does one group actually learn to have no faith that is not codependent? The most telling aspect is that the adults in charge don't get it when you try to explain. They are themselves products of similar conditioning.

I would like to call this something other than Faith because it is undesirable and should be avoided. But, as you mentioned, bastardized faith is a reality. True faith can't even be a real goal unless the pitfalls are clearly understood so the real thing can stand out. So the process requires learning in each generation "as you walk along the way," etc. We really can't successfully apply operational research and motion time method on raw material as it flows along the conveyor. One on one, custom teaching has advantages.

We just went from swinging a plumb bob, to watching water squirt out of holes poked into a plastic bottle full of colored water to breaking clothes hangers. It started with a question about the difference between vibrations and oscillations,. but that led to guitar strings vibrating, which led to sound pressure, which led to fatigue in bridges. I'm lucky the subject matter wasn't biology related. :) What if education is more pull oriented than push? Pneumatic systems are more easily controlled via flow valves on the output, rather than on the input because air is compressible. What if knowledge is compressible? That is, a person takes in what they can take in. If you push too much, you get fits and jerks. Push too little and you get boredom or worse. But make all available, and let the system take what it wants, when it's ready, and effectiveness is assured.

 

bill 

 

WRITER'S BLOCKHEAD

Bill

 I have been thinking about how to respond to this for a couple of days, and just can't get my arms around it.  Can you give me more? then maybe something will come....

reido

Just Vague Rambling

Sorry Reido. After reading it again, I have to say that it's got to be the vaguest bit of rambling that I've thrown together in a long time.

The last paragraph starts off talking about an afternoon of common, free floating question and answer session with one child asking a question about the difference between oscillations and vibrations, that came up while he was reading about pressure and vibration energy in a science book. I know it just drops out of nowhere, with no obvious connection to anything above.

What I tried to illustrate was a sort of synergistic flow from question to answer to demonstration-on-the-fly that just happened to work because the teacher had knowledge of the subject and the time and material to make up demonstrations at will. Well, almost.

This can't occur in group classes very well, and it doesn't always work out here. But it was fresh on my mind as an example of what can happen if the learner is in focus rather than the teacher or the institution, or the material or schedule. It just popped into my head as an example of teaching as you walk along the way, since there was no plan, it just happened.

Still, the overall point was that teaching the student is more effective than teaching the material. This includes living the lesson.

What I tried to start off with is that the story of Israel says that God wanted a people to show himself to the world through. Whether this was actually, without a doubt, revealed to Abraham and and Moses is less important than the idea that living the lesson is more effective than preaching it. This was the purpose that the post-exilic Jews came up with for continuing on after all was lost, as I see it. The words of Jesus were spoken to them, after all. Salt of the earth, and Light to the world, were messages spoken to the chosen who's lost almost everything but the meaning in their mandate.

The second and third paragraphs are just rambling about what I see as a failure in systems programming or mass production of new believers. What I've witnessed—certainly a small subset—seems to create ready-made relationships by programming one group to be winners and another to be losers. Winners are awarded points and other kinds of strokes for attendance and whatever other tricks they are supposed to learn. Those who don't, or can't for some reason, accumulate enough points, are then losers.

The fact that this arrangement is exactly opposite to the teachings of Jesus, Paul, James and Peter has no effect on most leaders I've haggled with, seems very telling to me. It seems to be invisible to some. The teaching is that the well have no need of a physician, and that the shepherd must leave the safe sheep and go out looking for the one lost lamb, and that faith without works (or productive results) is dead. But what the system teaches is that popularity, getting along with the right people, knowing lots of people, attendance, knowing the right answers, participation, looking and acting happy, loyalty and devotion to leadership and group, all these are what's important. Children are rewarded for these and ignored or even punished for failure. And so are adults. But words, scripture quoting, speaking and arguing make no headway. It's like trying to stick a north magnet pole to another north pole. The message and the listener out of phase. Mercy to the individual does not resonate with order in the group. Group-think just cannot grasp the needs of the individual. It can only see the individual as a potential piece of the group puzzle. If the piece fits, then all is good. But the puzzle never, ever fits itself to the piece.

Anyway, I think I've ranted way too much on this one. I know it makes little sense. I just haven't figured out a good way to say it yet. It's not that an individual is any better than another. But people are always more important than hierarchies that serve the egos of others.



bill

Framing Faith Inside the Person

Bill

I understand now what you were saying, and I think it's a much needed feature in our dialogue on Faith.  If we were to view the current river of thought as an existential construct, we begin to see how the verbal, plenary descriptive method fails to define what Faith is.  Actually, it is more what Faith is not. 

Also, you are correct when you note that the early teachings were not this kind of Scripted method -- these were stories about people, for people, and they were about living.  So I think you are onto yet another aspect of Faith that needs to be redefined -- or actually resurrected from the ancient method of teaching.

reido

Knowledge War

Reido (and anyone who wants to add to the conversation),

What do you know and think about the development of knowledge theory? I realize that question asks for a book full of responses, but there might be a simpler, general answer.

There seems to be have been a transition from experiential knowing, to rational and theoretical knowing, to propositional and scientific (experimental knowing since science means knowledge or knowing) knowing over about 3000 years. In the West, at least. Barry Allen charges early philosophers with stealing knowledge from the doers of it, the craftsmen, and creating a sterile version that they claimed was better, more true and ownership of it as well. This is of course a my generalization of his generalization, but it does fit my own experience.

I remember one boss, after I had worked overnight solving some incredibly wicked network problem, saying to me: “write this all down in detail so next time it will be easier (meaning faster, or that some else can do it after I'm gone, etc.).” He wouldn't understand that troubleshooting was the bulk of the work, such that 1; solving the problem is relatively easy once you know the cause, and 2; this exact situation is highly unlikely to happen again because I just fixed it. But, because he lacked the knowledge to understand the problem or the solution, and because his idea of knowledge was proposition based, he saw the whole enchilada as a mere if-then-else checklist, when in reality, the convergence of variables was so complex the probability of them occurring again in the same way was minute. Besides, it would be impossible to document all the intuitive bursts and turns, that would be inapplicable in another situation.

Which brings me to another point. My specialty is troubleshooting. It always has been. I think in patterns, tangentially and sometimes in parallel taking the best fit. But I suck at linear, methodical, processing. That's a big reason why I can't put together the redefinition of faith that's swimming in my head. Because I can't find the pieces if I try to access them in a stepwise fashion. Only a burst of creativity will free Excalibur from its stone. Also, I'm not a very good student by academy standards. I used to write software to demonstrate (play with) some of my class work and still not get an A on a test. That is, I could spend hours actually implementing principles in a medium like software (this is 1980s), or even homework problems, and class participation as well, but not so good on tests. My performance evaluations, from military through every civilian job have always been much higher than academic.

This is not to disparage the academy but the modern measure of knowledge. For even the corporation, were it to measure knowledge, would make the same assumptions and measure response to questions instead of implementation, that is application of knowledge. But corporations usually measure profit, loss and an employee's contribution to them. Which is still not quite knowledge application.

So, has knowledge been taken from the true knowers (the doers) and claimed by a sterile elite of scientists and philosophers of science? Or is true knowledge only held by the elite who leisurely study, sterilize, compress, expand, expound and document?

The thrust by some militant Atheists such as Richard Dawkins seems to look down extremely judgmentally on folk-religion. They blast religion, but even they should be smart enough to know that the examples they give are not theological ones. That is, they should know that much of what they complain about is the interpretation held by the common folk. So it seems that much of their ire might be raised against the ignorance of the commoners. Religion, they charge, is responsible for keeping the common folk in the dark regarding the Truth of creation and evolution. Yet, were it not for organized religion, the common folk would create their own, anyway. And I submit that it is the common folk who demand that religion remain as it is, rather than growing with the advances in human understanding. In the end it is merely elitism blaming religion because it is too cowardly to confront the majority head on.

There seems to me a clash of class going on. Not the same sort of class that we normally think of, tho'. Instead it's a clash of the literate against the semi-literate and functionally literate. But literacy assumes that all knowledge resides in ink on paper.



bill

What Is Truth?

Bill

There are very different kinds of knowledge.  The academics may know how to parrot a book, but I wouldn't want one to rebuild an engine on an airplane that I was boarding.  Children are often judged on a skewed basis that assumes all must bow to the same god, so to speak (Not really far from "G").  An educator once told me that schools have to be this way, and can't tailor to the kind of minds that students possess.  I still question that as an assumption, and I believe there are schools out there who have proved it wrong (though I can't cite one now). 

Here is something I noticed some time ago when we were in transition.  Take, for instance, the Lockian method of rational thought as was experienced in the Churches of Christ:  It was a pseudo-logic that adapted the Scientific Method (Locke), but the twist was they brain washed students into believing that a quote from the Scripture was equal to Truth.  Hence, all kinds of practices and beliefs developed around this verifiable method.  Quote a verse that says the first century church did this or that, and voila! instant Truth.  I was thrilled by the recent series on the history of the Latter Day Saints to see that they also adapted the same method, some authoritative arguments were identical, and others their own. 

What this showed me was that people believe what they are taught.  Sometimes they will genuinely question, but often they may not even want to think about such things.  Knowledge adopted and passed on is much easier than developing it on your own.

reido

Knowledge: by hearing or doing?

Being prone to ideas and concepts rather than lines and rules, I can appreciate the “intuitive bursts and turns” Bill spoke of much easier than the memorization methods of our academic systems. That being said I think it might be difficult, at best, to teach someone inspiration or intuition. We all have different learning styles, but some things are only gained from time in the field.

Most cultures have a history of storytellers, or sages, who passed on the history of the people to the young, through tales of war and famine, great leaders and trials. Some of these were musical troubadours; some were Shamans, or priests. Vocations were taught “hands-on” by artisans to indentured apprentices, or by parents to their young. For more complex subject matter to be passed on thoroughly to a greater number of students, it must be codified, and simplified- for a line upon line application into the minds of the many.

I think knowledge, when it was personally transferred by experience, was more relational- meaning the student grew in relationship with his mentor and his subject. Academic learning inscribes data on an impersonal, mental level…"something I have read and heard about, not something that I am."

“Religion” in my mind, is like that. “I have read and heard about this, therefore it is true, but it really does not have much to do with me.” As Reido said, “Knowledge adopted and passed on is much easier than developing it on your own.”

I think the more complex, man-oriented explanations we tack onto the “Truth,” the further away from it we actually get. God had it written it down for us, but not in the academic style we like, so we re-arrange it into humanly consumable rations or studies that make sense to us, and then call it gospel. The “common folk” Bill spoke of- live on relationship with the Divine, not on eloquent wordplay about him. Does this mean they “create their own religion,” or that they find the truth behind all the rhetoric, and go back to simple relationship with their creator?

rene'

Knowledge by Knowing

Rene wrote: That being said I think it might be difficult, at best, to teach someone inspiration or intuition. We all have different learning styles, but some things are only gained from time in the field.

Rene,

Absolutely. Yet we often pretend that anything can be reduced to a skill and, as you mentioned later, codified.

And, you may already know, this notion is only about a century old. It was developed by Fredrick Taylor with Henry Ford and Andrew Carnegie. Ford was able to break down the complicated and skill intensive building of a coach or automobile into just so many simple steps that most any farmhand could become a worker on his assembly line. Carnegie did the same with ship building and developed cost accounting to boot. Now every little step in very complex processes can be dumbed down and the cost tracked. Every square inch of raw material, every minute of every type of labor including design time, and every kilowatt hour of power for the programmable machines can be tracked. Our school system is designed to produce workers for these factories. What we really teach kids is to get their work done on time, focus on menial tasks, and do exactly as they are told even (or especially) when it seems wrong. We bore creativity out of them while rewarding them for precision parroting of the teacher.

I'm convinced that this development, and the standardizing that made the Industrial Revolution possible, has left us with an unhealthy view of knowledge. Because of that, or in addition to that, we misunderstand Faith, too. We think that someone can be taught spiritual “truths” through “facts” and propositions, and through blind obedience. Standardized followers of a standardized belief-system for a standardized age. This is more like unknowledge.

Rene wrote: I think the more complex, man-oriented explanations we tack onto the “Truth,” the further away from it we actually get.

Absolutely, again!

Part of my current head-banging-against-a-brick-wall experience comes from digging through all the cobwebs in my too little used intuitive brain left behind from years of modern, western, logical thinking. What's needed is more of an un-definition that leaves Truth accessible.

Rene also wrote: The “common folk” Bill spoke of- live on relationship with the Divine, not on eloquent wordplay about him. Does this mean they “create their own religion,” or that they find the truth behind all the rhetoric, and go back to simple relationship with their creator?

Well, sometimes. I can only speak of those I've known and those who make themselves known in public.

In looking back I can see that my words look rather elite-ish, even as I tilt at elitists. I don't mean them that way, but I want to be more open about the truth of much of factional religious teaching. I do wonder whether many people, left to themselves, would seek the mystery of God on their own. But that's not what I'm referring to. Unfortunately, what I'm talking about is folk-religion and superstitions that will grow up around any thing, person or personified wonder. Even Oprah. But most often it's around the ideas of a charismatic teacher who gets a denomination named for him.

In the end, I think we all know when we really know something. We don't know something when we know “about” it. Neither do we know God by knowing about religion. Ritual is supposed to teach us by doing. But much of the ritual that you and I grew up with was developed over the past 150 years and only claimed to have originated in the first century. While this is easily figured out with a little study, it's refutation will not be allowed by the leaders, even if the followers might grow from the experience. That is, there is more for them to know but it is hidden beneath layers of old paint that everyone is afraid to scrape off. Perhaps they're afraid that the old, built up paint is all that holds it all together.

We must get beyond this sort of stuff. Why must so many of us get to the point of being sick of religion or church before we can put it aside?

bill



well put re: education

Bill, If I've ever heard our educational system so clearly described as a servant to the Industrial Revolution, I've forgotten it.  (of course, I've forgotten where I put my car keys, but that's another stroy).  Well put, indeed!  Our system really does contribute to our de-humanization/de-personalization. Really does sync with so many other forces at work in the 20th century that proved to separate us from ourselves. I'll add add your reference to my faves, hallmarks of modern education: evolution theory and freudian psychology. Evolution theory because individuals are reduced to means to (no) end and Freudian psychology because individuals are sacrificed to humiliating slavery to the subconscious. As if intent means nothing! And there's an assault on faith for you: If you want to kill faith, cut its legs (the viability of intent) out from under it. 

 Nother thought:  Isn't it interesting that a common theme among so many entries here is: people seem to be getting in the way of relationship with God, understanding of God/self, realization of an authentic faith. Yet, even while we blame people, we complain about the depersonalistic nature of the post-modern experience.   What gives?

Vectors in Knowledge

Rene -- Good to hear from you.

All --

Are there not many ways to "know"?  And can humanity benefit by including rather than excluding these.  I feel so many possibilities are eliminated when boundaries are placed.  As Bill mentioned, I have been programmed for so long to process information  one particular way, that it becomes difficult to "see the kingdom of God" in many of its aspects.

reido

Knowledge beyond Reach ....?

Dear Mr Bill, Reido and Others,

 

                 Knowledge is one thing that has to be gained only voluntarily by any individual. Any amount of pushing down the throat and gullet of any one is of no use if the person does not want to assimilate. The famous saying,” A horse can be taken to a pond but can not be made to drink” is very relevant.  Knowledge may be gained by any means. An infant gains the knowledge on certain aspects from the mother by gestures and sounds. The infant is not developed to grasp through language up to certain time. This is knowledge by hearing at a very young age.   However in grown up children, things are different. While at schools, children have to be taught many things to groom them up. They gain knowledge now days by black board teaching (Conventional), Over head projectors,   and slide and video projectors, viewing CD over a screen, audio systems and many other latest techniques of audio visual aids. Knowledge is gained by viewing and hearing and experiencing too.   A person feeling cold or heat has to experience it. Any amount of description about cold can not help. Feeling of loss of gravity or free fall has to be experienced, but can not be learnt from empty talk.  At times, things are shown practically by dynamic models, simulation and real working models. That’s why in schools and colleges the fundamental scientific laws are taught and students verify over practical experiments and the gain knowledge based on rational proofs. Therefore simulators and many more dynamic gadgets are used for training air force pilots and other cosmonauts. That is scientific teaching and transmission of knowledge to others. With growth of industry as discussed by others, knowledge for mass production was developed by virtue of work and methods study. In this a particular worker was required to possess knowledge for a particular job and it could be highly limited. He had no knowledge of any thing more than that.  He has to be specially trained if another job was given to him. He was master of only a limited particular job till he was trained on some thing different.  This is the result of mass production. These are the requirement of the day. However the workers had some broad general training at technical schools before they were introduced to a particular job after training.  This continues even to day.

 

                   In case of religion the knowledge is built up from childhood by looking at parents and by their guidance. There is no method for scientific verification of religious teachings to inculcate faith as done in education. The knowledge is faith based. Most of the time, many doubts are harbored in young minds, but they remain un- answered. They grow up with these doubts.  These questions and doubts are mostly settled by the scriptural answers and these are accepted as it is without argument as a matter of compulsion. Here the knowledge is one way forced on minds. In another case, the knowledge is by virtue of faith in the past peers and scriptures as God’s word. No questions are asked. In one way, this could be blind faith. In fact, all the prophets spread their preaching and thoughts to the people and they followed voluntarily having faith in Prophet’s Word having heard him, seen   and experienced him. However after Prophet’s Death,   in most of the cases, the teachings became commandments and people from following generations who questioned these were persecuted by clergy and the rulers who were influenced by the clergy. Religion always spread by virtue of State power.  Religion has identified itself with rituals more and more as times passed and one’s religious obedience has started being identified with rituals. The trouble started at this stage with scientific and inquisitive minds growing day by day.  Many have become dissatisfied if not dejected with religion and the rituals. Practically speaking, till day no proper answer has been given to any of the important issue of the religion and scores of men and women remain dissatisfied.   There is no trouble as long as one goes through the mill in a routine way. Inquisitive mind will surely get into problem. There is no way of establishing scientifically that one is realized. No one can make other obtain realization of truth by his effort. What is Truth is very difficult to define at first instant to put things straight. Every one has to follow his own path (prescribed) seeking realization. Many can not understand what realization is. Answers are vague and do not satisfy. Future appears hazy and things appear unsure. As stated earlier, no knowledge is complete and none is fully knowledgeable. Hence the discussions would continue eternally probably without any end passing through many turbulent flows, twists and turns, spirals and vortex flows hoping to find true knowledge that has been eluding mankind. 

 

Dr K Prabhakar Rao              

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